“Did I miss anything?”

No I think that almost completely sums up the propaganda misinformation regarding the war.

4,000 of our troops and who knows how many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi’s dead and we may stand the chance to get another four more years in the form of McCain; who is either senile or just as dumb as Bush.

a very generous composition! very good work to show the madness… but i think, and i think this is applicable for every war like this: it´s not possible to make a completely fact-list about all suffering, sadness, lying, crime, generate from new hate and fucking backlash for a mankind evolution …all this cruddy, barmy children of such a war!

yes. but it’s not just the muslim world that’s pissed off.. the whole world is rather pissed off.

I’m really sorry you feel that way, but on every count you are wrong. Nothing I can say will convince you otherwise, but you are dead wrong. War is rough. Have you ever served? Have we had any more 9/11’s? It’s easy to say these things from the comfort of your own home. All you have listed here is a bunch of liberal anti-war propaganda designed to ensure the lessening of America’s public support for the war on terror, which almost all of us were for after 9/11. It was clearly stated that ANY country harboring terrorists was on our “you know what” list. The “keep our head in the sand” approach is a good way to get ourselves killed. I’m sad we have lost over 4000 brave Americans, but I will honor their sacrifice and support the effort until the job is done, not until some idiot politician decides he doesn’t like the war any more because it hurts people’s feelings. Stuff like this really pisses me off. Get over it: we’re there, lets get the job done right and get the hell out with honor and dignity. I don’t care what the rest of the world thinks, we have to put American interests and security first. We cannot make our foreign policy a policy of appeasement for everyone else, that’s just stupid. Iraq is more stable than Afghanistan now, we are getting closer every day to success - don’t spoil it now for selfish reasons.

@Stephen Galbincea: Excuse - but how do I feel about the Iraq war? Haven’t written anything about my feelings - just summed up some events.

“Have you ever served?” What is that question to do with a list of “unhappy” events in relation to the Iraq war.

“Have we had any more 9/11’s? ” Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And just in case you haven’t heard of the bombings in Madrid, London and in several tourist locations AFTER 9/11.

“All you have listed here is a bunch of liberal anti-war propaganda designed to ensure the lessening of America’s public support for the war on terror, which almost all of us were for after 9/11.”

I don’t care about America’s public support for the war. Here in Europe there was hardly ANY support for the war against Iraq. But many European countries supported the war in Afghanistan because it was “just”.

“The “keep our head in the sand” approach is a good way to get ourselves killed.”

Sorry, I have heard all these stories before - when the cold war was still raging in Europe the same was proclaimed about the evil Russians. The same was proclaimed about all the terrorist cells like “Rote Armee” here in Germany, Italy and Greece …

“Get over it: we’re there, lets get the job done right and get the hell out with honor and dignity. I don’t care what the rest of the world thinks, we have to put American interests and security first.”

Thank you for writing down your onesided attitude - that is why you are loosing the war for the hearts and minds of people, that is why you loose the support of your allies.

“We cannot make our foreign policy a policy of appeasement for everyone else, that’s just stupid.”

How about making SMARTER foreign policy that doesn’t drag the conflict on and on and on. In Afghanistan the US totally dropped the ball for example …

“Start a War based on lies.”
The information we had at the time was the best we could get. Saddam even admitted to testing the waters by eluding to weapons programs that were since shut down and then was surprised when America attacked. There is no such thing as perfect intelligence.

“Alienate all your European Allies.”
Our “allies” are alienated not by our actions, but by the fact that they are currently being overrun by Islamic populations because they are handing out free heath care and welfare for no reason or anyway to pay for it. They can’t support the US because their Muslim populations won’t let them. look at the Paris riots.

“Piss of the whole Muslim world.”
There will come a time when the majority of the Muslim world will have to distance itself from the extremism that is causing the terrorism. We do need to do a better job to make sure we stress that we are fighting extremism and not Islam because lord knows Christians have our own extremists (ex. Ireland)

“Save money on protective gear and Hummvees.”
As a US soldier, I can assure you that we have the best possible gear. Bar none.

“Totally ignore the Shia and Sunni conflict in the region.”
Durr, this is all we are doing right now. Granted it needs to be said that Iraq has to come together if they ever want the US to leave. It’s not likely that the US or the UN or anyone is going to create two separate countries, so just get used to working together or get used to the American Flag.

“Dissolve the Iraqi Police for more crime.”
“Dissolve the Iraqi Military for more crime.”
you don’t know what you are talking about. I have personally tasked these two forces to work hand in hand in Iraq with American forces on extremely critical missions. More and more often they are being tasked out by themselves and they are gaining a greater sense of autonomy as well as pride in the work they are doing. DESPITE being the main target of insurgents.

“Torture your prisoners and take snaps for everybody.”
“Ignore war crimes of your own troops.”
obviously in a war, there is a few bad apples. I can assure you that not everyone in the US armed forces is running around torturing/abusing prisoners. And if they are, they are sure as heck going to get punished. And they are going to be punished by the Army, which will not hesitate to put you into jail with some other soldiers guarding them who are disgusted by the way they portrayed the US.

“Forget to secure huge amount of weapons and ammo.”
Good luck finding too many unsecured weapons around soldiers. we sleep with the d*#% things. I am sure there is some expected loss of supplies/ammo but when you look at the MASSIVE amount of weapons caches we clear each and everyday, it is beans.

“Drive up the price for oil.”
Yeah, blame OPEC. no prob, with the amount of money being invested in alternatives, oil will be history soon enough, thank GOD!

“Ruin your own military.”
yeah, ok….we have the most fierce and well trained army in the history of the world……are you kidding? seriously?

“Start a job boom for Blackwater and other mercenaries. plus
Make Halliburton even richer. plus
Funnel Billions of Dollars into dark holes. plus
Funnel Billions of Dollars to contractors who waste the money. plus
Encourage a culture or corruption in Iraq. plus”
I’m not crazy about contractors. personally, I think Iraqi contractors should be getting these jobs so their economy can recover but in most cases, they are not willing to do it which is why the US pays contractors from the states so well.

“Blame everything on Iran and al-Quaida”
Watch the news. Even liberal CNN is blasting Iran for their constant and PROVEN involvement in training, supporting and aiding the insurgency in Iraq. What more can we expect from a little 5 foot tall dictator who plans to be the next Hitler. And by the sound of it, Europe is content with letting him be. I would think that they would learn the first time around on that one.

Some of the items on the list are arguable, but I think you’ve about covered it.

@k9maniac: Hello and welcome to my blog. Thanks for your long and detailed comment - even though we very much disagree on almost all points. But I appreciate your willingness to engage in a discussion with a cheese eating surrender monkey …

“The information we had at the time was the best we could get.”

Not true. See the Downing Street memo and the Frontline documentary “Bush’s War”. From the very first moment 9/11 happened the neo-cons desparatly tried to glue it to Saddam.

“Our “allies” are alienated not by our actions, but by the fact that they are currently being overrun by Islamic populations because they are handing out free heath care and welfare for no reason or anyway to pay for it. They can’t support the US because their Muslim populations won’t let them. look at the Paris riots.”

Sorry, but from were did you get that idea? The riots in Paris (and to make it especially complete Denmark (because of the old cartoon affair)) had more to do with economics than politics. Most young immigrants don’t have jobs and are badly integrated into their host countries societies. Especially in France they have asked BEFORE the riots for public support, education and integration - it has been promised to them, but NOT delivered. That is why they got very angry.

“There will come a time when the majority of the Muslim world will have to distance itself from the extremism that is causing the terrorism.”

Actually … in the 1990’s those fundamental Muslims have already been rejected in elections and riots all over the Mulim world by “normal” Muslims. The Muslim Brotherhood and similar parties have been (and still are) on the ballot in many countries - their politics have been rejected.

After that rejection by the people the chief of political philosopher of radical Islam Ayman al-Zawahiri said it’s oke to bomb the “normals” because their had failed the Koran.

“We do need to do a better job to make sure we stress that we are fighting extremism and not Islam because lord knows Christians have our own extremists (ex. Ireland)”

Agreed.

“As a US soldier, I can assure you that we have the best possible gear. Bar none.”

So why have there been so many reports about these underequiped troops and many injuries from the lack or armor?

I have read several GI blogs where some of your fellow soliders bitterly complained about the lack of these items?

“Granted it needs to be said that Iraq has to come together if they ever want the US to leave.”

You know the history of Iraq and that it is an artifical country created by the west / British?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Mesopotamia

Iraq hardly has any internal glue or national identity that holds it together.

“It’s not likely that the US or the UN or anyone is going to create two separate countries, so just get used to working together or get used to the American Flag.”

Actually three countries: Kurdistan, Shia and a Shiite province or country. What happened to Yugoslavia could easily happen to Iraq and why not. The artifcial Soviet Union also collapsed into it’s former parts like the Ukrain.

One more thing: long term occupations always cause trouble. look at China and Tibet right now or the problems of the British Empire …

“Dissolve the Iraqi Police for more crime.”
“Dissolve the Iraqi Military for more crime.”
“you don’t know what you are talking about.”

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/yeariniraq/view/

“I have personally tasked these two forces to work hand in hand in Iraq with American forces on extremely critical missions.”

Yes, the NEW Iraqi military and police. But after the war was won Paul Bremer disbanded the police and military WITHOUT having an adequate replacement.

Historical sidenot: when WWII was won the Brits and Americans left many Japanese soldiers in place in some places to keep public safety up. They were of course replaced by allied Soldiers over time …

“Torture your prisoners and take snaps for everybody.”
“Ignore war crimes of your own troops.”
“obviously in a war, there is a few bad apples.”

Sorry, the bad apples excuse does not compute.

Gitmo is not done by a few bad apples, but a concerted effort by the US military and government. The worldwide program of extraordinary renditions is done with the full support of the US government.

For example German and Canadian citizens have been abducted by the CIA and the disappeared sometimes for years in dark cells, to be tortured for nothing. Neither their families, nor their Governments were officially informed. There was no due process as required by law, etc.

“I can assure you that not everyone in the US armed forces is running around torturing/abusing prisoners.”

I don’t consider the US armed forces tortureres, it is basically the fault of the political regime that pushed that policy. Colin Powell protested several times against these policies, so did John McCain in some of his better moments. They knew that ignoring the Geneva Convention will only hurt your own troops.

“Good luck finding too many unsecured weapons around soldiers.”

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/06/iraq.weapons/index.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6407177

“Drive up the price for oil.”
“Yeah, blame OPEC. no prob, with the amount of money being invested in alternatives, oil will be history soon enough, thank GOD!”

Well, OPEC did certainly profit from the oil price. There are many factors that influence the price (especially India’s and China’s huge demand). But the war certainly didn’t drive the price down.

“yeah, ok….we have the most fierce and well trained army in the history of the world……are you kidding? seriously?”

http://www.reuters.com/article/gc05/idUSN1328711120080314

And many more … there is a strain on the US military and the American economy is suffering from imperial overstretch. Like the US military budgets is totally overblown the US has a huge amount of expensive military bases all over the world.

“I’m not crazy about contractors. personally, I think Iraqi contractors should be getting these jobs so their economy can recover but in most cases, they are not willing to do it which is why the US pays contractors from the states so well.”

Let me be the devils advocate for a moment and throw some of your own words back to you: If the US military is really so great, why does it need private contractors to do it’s jobs. America and it’s Allies won WWII with private contractors?

Commercialising war always caused HUGE problems. Look up some European history, especially the wars in Italy between the city states. The mercanaries back then muddled in politics to keep wars going to make a healthy profit. Citizen soldiers have no interest in perpetuating war, but companies have.

“Blame everything on Iran and al-Quaida”
“Watch the news. Even liberal CNN is blasting Iran for their constant and PROVEN involvement in training, supporting and aiding the insurgency in Iraq.”

Of course Iran and al-Quaida have their fingers now in Iraq, but they are hardly responsible for all the violence. Many insurgents are simply Iraqi patriots fighting for their country.

“What more can we expect from a little 5 foot tall dictator who plans to be the next Hitler. And by the sound of it, Europe is content with letting him be. I would think that they would learn the first time around on that one.”

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is no Hitler, it takes a bit more to fill the footsteps of Nazi Germany.

Europe overall prefers talking over bombing. We had our imperial phase and it didn’t work out very well. Hard power - military threats - have neither stopped Pakistan or North Korea from getting the bomb. It’s rather a great motivation to get one.

Especially in context with Iran: if you look at it’s recent history you will find that the Iranian people have hardly ANY reason to comply with anything the US wants from them. Like Iraq their internal affairs have been manipulated by the British and later the Americans. I think their appetite for a strong national defence is rather undestandable. Why should a country like Iran not have a strong military - you Americans insist on your right to have a huge one - why shouldn’t everybody else …

Thanks for reading all my crap.

@David: Thanks and welcome to the Orange Madness.

BTW, your essay on Ancient Greek Politics was pretty interesting. I wanted to comment, but stupid Blogger wants me to sign in as a Blogger-User …

Hello, again!

“From the very first moment 9/11 happened the neo-cons desperately tried to glue it to Saddam.”
I was thinking about this and to tell you the truth, when I look at the big picture I say OK, maybe the evidence was skewed. However, as a member of the Intel community (within the army) I know how easy it can be to get an idea in your head and for the evidence to start adding up to the conclusion you want to see. Maybe I am biased because I think Saddam never should have been left in power in 1990. Weapons of mass destruction or not, I think he needed to go back then. It has been very well documented that he did have them then and he even spied on inspectors and gov’t officials since then to cover up his dirty work. Hard to say that even if they did have weapons in the months before the war, how hard would it really be do destroy them?

“The riots in Paris (and to make it especially complete Denmark (because of the old cartoon affair)) had more to do with economics than politics.”

I am very familiar with these riots and their causes. However, I was only trying to make the point of how many Muslim immigrants (in this case poor and unemployed) are in Europe today. Surely many of them are great citizens but this new young generation are the ones (European citizens of Muslim descent) who attacked Madrid and London.

“Why have there been so many reports about these unequipped troops and many injuries from the lack or armor?”
I think we can agree that anyone put into a situation where bullets are flying is going to feel they need better protection. I know that I have a set of top of the line armor sitting in my bedroom at home, so I would sure hope that everyone in the actual fight right now has one. I feel badly for the Iraqi army and police to give some context because even though they are provided with good equipment, it is nowhere near as sophisticated of complete as US Army personnel. Ideally, we would all look like robocop with these giant bio-mechanical suits to protect us from harm, but the technology is just not feasible right now.

“You know the history of Iraq and that it is an artificial country created by the west / British?”
I am familiar with this and personally, I would love to let them set up three countries. However, I studied in college a great deal about the hardships and impracticalities of drawing borders based on Ethnic backgrounds. Take for instance Africa or the Balkans. You see the demands for the lines to be drawn in the sand based on where people live. but then the people of descent who end up on the wrong side of the line will protest and raise up to fight it. the same will happen of natural resources as seen in Africa. Once the lines are drawn, perhaps the oil or gold or diamonds are on the wrong side and the wall comes tumbling down. In Practicality, it just doesn’t work like that. This is why the countries that are more of a melting pot work better.

“Yes, the NEW Iraqi military and police. But after the war was won Paul Bremer disbanded the police and military WITHOUT having an adequate replacement.”
Yes, true. The replacement was not there but I think the situation requires a little bit more explanation. the Iraqi army and police were so corrupt and infiltrated by Saddam’s regime that it would have been impossible to allow them to run anything. We have only recently gotten to a point where they can be pseudo-trusted. In fact, many of the insurgents we see today served in either the Iraqi army or police under Saddam. That does not sound like the people I would like to have patrolling post Saddam streets.

“Gitmo is not done by a few bad apples, but a concerted effort by the US military and government. The worldwide program of extraordinary renditions is done with the full support of the US government.”
I feel like much of this comes down to a failing of our Justice system to some degree. It is not like we’re holding children and grandmas at Gitmo. These people are criminals. They don’t just send you to Gitmo on a whim or for stealing a loaf of bread. you did some bad things and you should be punished but our system is such a run around and mess that justice is hard to be found. I have mixed feelings about gitmo. Do I want the people we catch to talk? what if it prevents another 9/11? or another 7/7? I do know the Geneva convention and to tell you the truth as a soldier, I am 100% confident that I would never be given the rights guaranteed by that document if captured by an insurgent group. They would cut off my head and show it to my friends and family. Do I think that gives us the RIGHT to do it to them? NO NO NO. Does it make me angry and frustrated? Absolutely.

“Good luck finding too many unsecured weapons around soldiers.”
I read through these article and it is an astounding number but it seems to me they are saying it is quite possible that these errors were clerical in nature and the weapons are where they should be. Even as shocking as these numbers are, I can assure you again we find that many insurgent weapons many times over in Iraq. That’s one thing we are really good at.

“And many more … there is a strain on the US military and the American economy is suffering from imperial overstretch. Like the US military budgets is totally overblown the US has a huge amount of expensive military bases all over the world.”
Ok well now I see a little about what you are saying here. We certainly didn’t ruin our military, we changed it. Now to me this is a good thing. For instance if you were to go to Basic training here today, you would receive a huge quantity of urban fighting training. It is referred to as MOUT….mil. ops in urban terrain. 10 to 15 years ago, there was none of this. It comes down to a fundamental revolution in the way wars are fought. It can be seen when you look at the uniforms worn by our soldiers now. Before it was forest colors, now it is urban. We are overstretched to some extent but it is amazing to me that we can maintain these numbers during a time of war without a draft. Simply astounding how many people volunteer for the services everyday.

“why does it need private contractors to do it’s jobs?”
Blackwater and others don’t fight our war for us. Thats not what they do. They provide security for sites and people who could not be effectively protected by enlisted soldiers. Let me try to explain: The PM of Iraq needs security. Does it make sense to put a squad of special forces on him for protection when they could be running missions and capturing insurgents? No. These companies bring in ex- special forces to do the job because no contractors can go running around kicking in doors and taking names. Sure, I agree that it needs to be regulated and I HOPE that the people responsible for the MURDERS in a Baghdad market a few months back pay the appropriate price. (as of right now, they have been put at fault but I hope something is done)

“Many insurgents are simply Iraqi patriots fighting for their country.”
I don’t buy that. From what I have seen, these insurgents are all affiliated with some form of extremist group. They don’t just appose the US there, but the Iraqi gov’t. To me, that is not a patriot, it is a rebel and a traitor.

“Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is no Hitler, it takes a bit more to fill the footsteps of Nazi Germany.”
He wants the world to believe the holocaust never happened. He has openly admitted that he has every intention of destroying Israel and all Jews worldwide. As far as I can tell, the only difference between this guy and Hitler is that Hitler was smart enough to keep these aspirations to himself and that America will never let Ahmadeinejad do these things because we do not believe that appeasement works. Ask Churchill.

“Europe overall prefers talking over bombing.”
And for that, I thank you for WWI as well as WWII. Sorry for the rough comment, but as a realist, these examples are stone solid and will always hold true. Sometimes I think that Europe is on the verge of forgetting what happened in the charge up to those wars.

“you Americans insist on your right to have a huge one - why shouldn’t everybody else …”
Your right to a strong defensive force goes down the toilet the second you tell the world you intend to use it to wipe another nation off the planet and it becomes an offensive weapon. And I know you’ll say “well America does that”. our situation is unique. If the world hegemon(which we are, despite criticism) does not stand and prevent tyrants from rising, they no longer deserve to be the hegemon. That is what happened to England in WWII. They had the power to stop Hitler before it was too late, but they did not stand. It has happened many times over in history. And it always reads the same: when the hegemon does stand and combat something awful, they are portrayed as evil. But the time they neglect to do so for fear of being seen as a tyrant themselves, they are supporters of appeasement and missed their chance to shine.

I look forward to your response.
-Ken

@Ken:

“I was thinking about this and to tell you the truth, when I look at the big picture I say OK, maybe the evidence was skewed. However, as a member of the Intel community (within the army) I know how easy it can be to get an idea in your head and for the evidence to start adding up to the conclusion you want to see. Maybe I am biased because I think Saddam never should have been left in power in 1990.”

American Intelligence was mostly based on the comments of “Curveball” who was interrogated by the Germans. The BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst) passed on the infos to the US, but already back then they said he was a fishy guy. So one persons inconsistent testimony was the basis for the whole weapons of mass destruction argument? The UN inspectors - which included many scientists and military people - said Saddam had no more weapons. Who would I trust - a single weirdo from Iraq or a horde of UN weapons inspectors who had been on this project for years …

“I am very familiar with these riots and their causes. However, I was only trying to make the point of how many Muslim immigrants (in this case poor and unemployed) are in Europe today. Surely many of them are great citizens but this new young generation are the ones (European citizens of Muslim descent) who attacked Madrid and London.”

Who had many Turks here in Germany, like Spain has Maroccans and France many Algerians etc. - it has never been a big problem.

The main problem with all radical ideologies is: will they get support from normal people. People like Osama or Hitler only stand a chance IF there is a silent or ignorant majority in the population that supports them.

I don’t think that there is an effective way to counter small groups of terrorists. If someone wants to blow themselves up than there is no way stopping them. But there is a long way from small cells of terrorism to a mass movement.

Hitler found a huge basis for his ideas and visions in Germany after WWI. So did Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran during the regime of that pesky Shah. Both movements had very different backgrounds and fell on two very different “soils” to grow on. In both cases people were willing to institute a totalitarian regime.

So Muslims in Europe are no problem - as long as they are integrated and have no reason to start a mass riot. The youngsters in Paris had a reason to riot - but they wanted attention and jobs, not a change in Government or installing the Caliphate.

“I think we can agree that anyone put into a situation where bullets are flying is going to feel they need better protection. I know that I have a set of top of the line armor sitting in my bedroom at home, so I would sure hope that everyone in the actual fight right now has one.”

All I can refer to are the reports on so many news sites and some of your own Generals and Politicians.

“I feel badly for the Iraqi army and police to give some context because even though they are provided with good equipment, it is nowhere near as sophisticated of complete as US Army personnel.”

It is a sorry affair to fight. One can only hope that peace will come back soon. But I guess Iraq will have to sort itself out - with or without bullets. And there is no real medicine against religious wars and anger - in this case Shias against Sunnis.

“I studied in college a great deal about the hardships and impracticalities of drawing borders based on Ethnic backgrounds. Take for instance Africa or the Balkans. You see the demands for the lines to be drawn in the sand based on where people live. but then the people of descent who end up on the wrong side of the line will protest and raise up to fight it. the same will happen of natural resources as seen in Africa.”

I agree. I personally think we still haven’t finished the colonial age, because many of todays hotspots are a result of artificial countries created by European Imperialists. All these constructs don’t really work and create constant reasons for fights. Some of the African countries are a joke - throwing together totally alien tribes into a Nation. It would be best if many of these countries would “remix” in a more tribal way, form national identities and grow up as neighbors.

“Yes, true. The replacement was not there but I think the situation requires a little bit more explanation. the Iraqi army and police were so corrupt and infiltrated by Saddam’s regime that it would have been impossible to allow them to run anything.”

Oh sure there was huge corruption - but there should have been a “smarter” transitional period. The same applies to the economy. The Americans installed capitalism overnight to people who weren’t used to this at all. It didn’t work in Russia and it was even here in East Germany. Societies need transitional periods. Even after WWII de-nazification was done slowly to keep the system running and rebuilding it with real democrats …

“I feel like much of this comes down to a failing of our Justice system to some degree. It is not like we’re holding children and grandmas at Gitmo. These people are criminals. They don’t just send you to Gitmo on a whim or for stealing a loaf of bread.”

Maybe not to Gitmo:

http://www.taxitothedarkside.com/

“What if it prevents another 9/11?”

Since I consider this the main argument for torture and nasty prisons like GITMO. Overall 9/11 could have been prevented with better police and intelligence work. The terrorists taking flying lessons actually had been reported by the FBI - but they simply fumbled. Also the same is true getting box cutters on the plane - bad security. So simply using the laws and instruments of enforcements MIGHT have prevented such a catastrophy - no torture necessary.

Once again I like to rephrase: if someone decides to kill himself in an act of terror, there is little to stop him or her.

Plus: Torture has proven many times NOT to work. Even the Israelis don’t use it - and they can fear / face nasty attacks every day.

Overall it’s good to see that some American people don’t see these aggressive and immoral US politics as a solution.

“I read through these article and it is an astounding number but it seems to me they are saying it is quite possible that these errors were clerical in nature and the weapons are where they should be.”

I can only refer to the articles - I lack any proof. One can only hope it was a clerical error.

“Ok well now I see a little about what you are saying here. We certainly didn’t ruin our military, we changed it.”

I am still not sure if we are on the same wavelength - certainly the military has changed and focused more on asymmetric threats instead of the “old school” big battle tactics of the cold war.

“We are overstretched to some extent but it is amazing to me that we can maintain these numbers during a time of war without a draft. Simply astounding how many people volunteer for the services everyday.”

Draft numbers have been down in the US in recent years. You maintain your military / budget mostly on credit. So the effort is not sustainable without ruining your economy. Hey, even the Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US Dollar. Your kids will have to pay off the war cost.

Blackwater and others don’t fight our war for us. Thats not what they do. They provide security for sites and people who could not be effectively protected by enlisted soldiers.

Oh, I know that. They also wash your socks, cock your meals. All jobs done by the Army itself. Still those security guys are mostly former US military and are conceived as part of the occupation Army. It is especially damaging that they are not responsible to any law in Iraq - they can kill, steal and mame whoever and whatever they want.

For your military guys there are at least the rules of engagement in place -but none for these guys. All they do is create anger and harsh feelings - this can’t be good for neither side …

“I don’t buy that. From what I have seen, these insurgents are all affiliated with some form of extremist group. They don’t just appose the US there, but the Iraqi gov’t. To me, that is not a patriot, it is a rebel and a traitor.”

Hmmm, if your country would be occupied and the chaos got worse, wouldn’t you at some point try to do something? Remember what I said about extremism and “normal” people. The chaos in Iraq literally has created that fertile ground for extremism for normal people to join or accept.

I still don’t think that many of these people are extremists - in many cases - like the Mahdi Army - it’s rather religious affiliation.

“He wants the world to believe the holocaust never happened. He has openly admitted that he has every intention of destroying Israel and all Jews worldwide.”

That is something the whole Arab world wants to do (more or less). Look especially at that American Ally Saudi Arabia and it’s Wahabi brand of Islam. They want to do even worse stuff to all the world - and they are supported by HUGE donations and the Government. Saudi Arabia paid for many mosques and preachers abroad (Europe etc.) and they are mostly not what one would call open minded or good democrats.

Did anyone bomb Egypt? Or Saudi Arabia? Or Libyia?

So many countries have leaders or internal doctrines of hate and aggression against “others” - will you bomb them all?

“As far as I can tell, the only difference between this guy and Hitler is that Hitler was smart enough to keep these aspirations to himself and that America will never let Ahmadeinejad do these things because we do not believe that appeasement works. Ask Churchill.”

Hitler actually spelled out most of his ideas way before he reached power in his book “Mein Kampf” - so he was even more out spoken than Ahmadeinejad.

Hitler (like Stalin) simply lied to the Allies, signed contracts he never had the intention of following. Chamberlain - who was so famously duped by Hitler - actually declared war on Germany, after the contract was broken. He tried appeasement first and resorted to war later. I think that’s the way all diplomacy should go.

“And for that, I thank you for WWI as well as WWII. Sorry for the rough comment, but as a realist, these examples are stone solid and will always hold true. Sometimes I think that Europe is on the verge of forgetting what happened in the charge up to those wars.”

In the last 55 years the were no major wars in Europe - apart from the Balkans which was a civil war. European politics has mostly changed from colonialism and imperialism to soft power. It took only the British and the French some more conflicts to realize that.

The EU has peacefully expanded like no other political constructs before: there was no external enemy and no internal superpower pushing this unification of this densely populated area.

“Your right to a strong defensive force goes down the toilet the second you tell the world you intend to use it to wipe another nation off the planet and it becomes an offensive weapon.”

Excuse me? Your country has adopted the doctrine of a preemptive strike. So many nation now lives in fear of nuclear attack just because America doesn’t like what it’s leader or people think, say or build.

“And I know you’ll say “well America does that”. our situation is unique. If the world hegemon(which we are, despite criticism) does not stand and prevent tyrants from rising, they no longer deserve to be the hegemon. That is what happened to England in WWII. They had the power to stop Hitler before it was too late, but they did not stand.”

Since we talking history here …

Actually the Allies demands in Versaille created the basis for Hitlers rise to power. Germanys poverty after WWI created the economic disaster that created that fertile ground for Fascism. It was the same poverty and cry for “justice” that drove the Russians against the Tsar and into the hand of the communists.

So militarism and wars created a “terrible” peace that was the fertile soil for more wars.

One of smartest things after WWII was to rebuild Germany as a democracy without huge demands or limits for the nation itself. The same is true for Japan. Nobody would think that these two nations would be bad democracies these days?

I see history in that context very different from your definition. Every nation needs a military and some form of doctrine. It doesn’t matter if you are an Empire or a small state. Most Empires has an aggressive mythology and internal support for their “sacred mission”, doesn’t matter if that was “For King and Country”, “Heil Hitler” or “Allah is great”.

These Empires mostly crumbled when their internal vitality was declining and the internal mythology was loosing it’s power. The British Empire made a HUGE humanitarien swing in the 18th century, Rome lost most of it’s martial lust after becoming Christian (after that they mostly ruled via religious dogma and not sheer military power). etc.

I consider War or better say militarism as an expression of societies - of course always in context with their times, circumstances and neighbors.

And these are of course only simplified ideas.

@Ken: One more thought …

What I was trying to say was: to prevent Hitlers you need to built a “better peace”.

Examples?

The current Israeli situation is a bad peace. It’s unfair nature plays right into the Islamic doctrine of war (they also have a doctrine for peace) and old Anti-Semitism.

The Taliban and Osama bin Laden’s Afghanistan was the result of the Soviet and American intervention. Especially the CIA didn’t care about the Taliban after the Soviets had left. That was a bad peace, because they created a bad Totalitarian System and provided fertile ground for Osama and his Pals.

“I don’t think that there is an effective way to counter small groups of terrorists. If someone wants to blow themselves up than there is no way stopping them. But there is a long way from small cells of terrorism to a mass movement.”

I read a book recently (albeit a conservative one) that was all about the topic of European Islamification. A lot of it was scare tactics and propaganda but one section that truly caught my eye was when the author was discussing Muslim opinion of 9/11. Obviously it was perpetrated by some extreme people, and as you said, if they want to do it, there is no way to stop them. What is astonishing is the statistics on the moderate Islam population. When asked if they would do something like that in the name of Jihad, obviously nearly none said they would. However, when you get into asking them questions about if they think the actions that the pilots took were “Just”, about half said they were. Then when asked if they had information regarding these attacks before they happened and they could tell someone to stop it, almost every single person said they would do nothing. To me, that is support. You don’t have to be flying the plane in order to technically support these extremists. As far as I am concerned, someone who is not willing to do something to stop the attack is just as bad as someone who actually plans and executes it. By having the information and not disclosing it, you are telling the extremists you agree with their cause. Therefore, I think it is important for moderate Muslims to step to one side or the other. Either they are part of the solution, or they are part of the problem.

“The youngsters in Paris had a reason to riot - but they wanted attention and jobs, not a change in Government or installing the Caliphate.”

immigrants move to other countries to gain a foothold and find better conditions. People not having jobs is a major cause of the insurgency in Iraq. When you have nothing to do and you sit around all day, just about any cause starts to look good. This has happened in South America, Africa, etc. Now these new immigrants are coming to Europe for jobs and certainly for the free health care and don’t have jobs. As more and more come, they want to bring their culture. this is where the issue occurs. Obviously there is huge cultural gaps between the West and Islam. the problem is most Muslims don’t want to be more moderate to blend in. They expect the culture they are entering to mold to them. This is where Europe is going to have issues. They have no intention of blending in with most cases. They don’t necessarily want to change the government, just the people and the way they live their lives.

“I personally think we still haven’t finished the colonial age”

I totally agree with you. It is impossible to expect a line to be drawn in the sand and for those around it to conform to it. Especially in Africa where the tribes are so unique. Some of these people spent hundreds of years battling and imperialist powers moved in and made them in to neighbors and countrymen! HAH!

“torture…..Israelis don’t use it ”

I don’t believe that for a second.

“They also wash your socks, cock your meals. All jobs done by the Army itself.”
I laughed when I read this because despite the fact that the Army trains cooks and people to do laundry, all these tasks are contracted outside of the army. Pretty dumb, if you ask me. I actually know an Army cook who ended up running missions and patrols while in Iraq. not my idea of fun.

“It is especially damaging that they are not responsible to any law in Iraq - they can kill, steal and mame whoever and whatever they want.”
Agreed, they should be held to the same if not a more strict standard than soldiers.

“Hmmm, if your country would be occupied and the chaos got worse, wouldn’t you at some point try to do something?”
I would join the Army or the police, someone who is trying to restore order, not destroy it.

“I still don’t think that many of these people are extremists - in many cases - like the Mahdi Army - it’s rather religious affiliation.”
I’m not saying they are all Al Queda or Iranian extremists, but religious fanatics, extremists, whatever you want to call them. You have to be pretty extremist and polarized to be blowing people up.

“So many countries have leaders or internal doctrines of hate and aggression against “others” - will you bomb them all?”

When someone tries to take their beliefs and force them upon me in war, myself and the others like me will stand and fight. Do I feel the need to bomb Egypt or S. A. because they don’t like Israel? no. but the moment they take that fight to Israeli soil, as an Ally of Israel and what it stands for, I will be there to make it right. I know many do not agree with Israel’s existence, but what is done is done with that one.

“Hitler actually spelled out most of his ideas way before he reached power in his book “Mein Kampf” - so he was even more out spoken than Ahmadeinejad.”
But no one took them seriously because he was in prison, where as Ahmadeinejad is the head of a country.

“The EU has peacefully expanded like no other political constructs before: there was no external enemy and no internal superpower pushing this unification of this densely populated area.”
I have read extensively on the EU. while I think it is a good idea in concept, I think it is poorly executed. The weak centralization is similar to the original United States and that surely did not work because the larger government has no jurisdiction over the actual states. Another gripe I have with the EU is universal health care and welfare. Having a welfare state is as we will soon discover, implausible. It works out well for the people who can’t afford health care, but what about the ones who pay for it? Today, the growth rate in Europe is epically below reasonable levels. When you add the influx of immigrants who simply want to take advantage of these welfare handouts with no intentions of paying for them to the already shrinking numbers of youth to fill their parent’s shoes, you have a major crisis. When you can’t pay for something , you can’t have it. period. The same thing is happening in the US with social security because of he baby-boomers. These types of big government handout spending look great on paper until they get put into place and bankrupt a country’s reserves.

“And I know you’ll say “well America does that”. our situation is unique. If the world hegemon(which we are, despite criticism) does not stand and prevent tyrants from rising, they no longer deserve to be the hegemon. That is what happened to England in WWII. They had the power to stop Hitler before it was too late, but they did not stand.”

“So militarism and wars created a “terrible” peace that was the fertile soil for more wars.”
Wrong. The bitter French and English created a terrible peace. The lesson was learned the second time around. When I step back and look at the arms race today with nuclear weapons, I see the peace it has created. The guarantee of mutually assured destruction does in fact work. The reason we have to fight proliferation to countries like N. Korea and Iran is that perhaps they don’t have the same sense of reason that we do. Are they really concerned with mutual destruction or are the in fact mad?

@k9maniac: Thanks for the long reply.

“What is astonishing is the statistics on the moderate Islam population. When asked if they would do something like that in the name of Jihad, obviously nearly none said they would. However, when you get into asking them questions about if they think the actions that the pilots took were “Just”, about half said they were. Then when asked if they had information regarding these attacks before they happened and they could tell someone to stop it, almost every single person said they would do nothing. To me, that is support.”

I agree. But this is that passive / ignorant support that has been growing lately. I think in terms of Hearts & Minds western humanitarianism has lost a lot of ground, but not because it itself is bad, but because so many western countries made bad policies and supported tyrannical governments in many Muslim countries (like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc.).

“Either they are part of the solution, or they are part of the problem.”

Sorry, that is too simple for me. Most people have many colliding ideas / ideals in their head. They often “support” terrible things on one side, but find them gruesome and stupid on the other. Modern (political) life has many grey areas that can’t be bridged by such statements or political doctrines.

“As more and more come, they want to bring their culture. this is where the issue occurs. Obviously there is huge cultural gaps between the West and Islam. the problem is most Muslims don’t want to be more moderate to blend in. They expect the culture they are entering to mold to them. This is where Europe is going to have issues.”

Agreed. But cultural transformation has always happened in densely populated and highly differentiated places like Europe. You drive 300 km here and you have crossed through several cultures and languages. The current cultural challenges with Muslims will change them as well as Europe. After mostly Christian Europe has become closer and more unified - maybe the same process will happen between Europe and the Middle East. I think that the area of Europe und the Middle East (you can consider it as an symbiosis of the Holy Roman Empire and the Caliphate) share a lot of DNA. Maybe the next 200 years will unite them - so some conflicts can be expected.

“They have no intention of blending in with most cases.”

Hmmm, not true in absolute numbers. For example: many Turks - who have a very strong national identity - have become part of Germany. The majority mixes a European lifestyle with an Turkish identity. Nothing wrong with that.

“I personally think we still haven’t finished the colonial age”
“I totally agree with you.”

Goodie!

“torture…..Israelis don’t use it ”
I don’t believe that for a second.

I couldn’t find the link, but the main guy for Israeli security said in a long interview that he doesn’t use and believe in torture. They get most information out of their prisoners by being smart and using intelligent interrogation.

“Agreed, they should be held to the same if not a more strict standard than soldiers.”

Yep, agreed.

“I’m not saying they are all Al Queda or Iranian extremists, but religious fanatics, extremists, whatever you want to call them. You have to be pretty extremist and polarized to be blowing people up.”

I think it would be save to say that some people have become extremist, because they are angry or desperate. Not everybody is born an extremist - but driven to extremes by extreme situation …

“When someone tries to take their beliefs and force them upon me in war, myself and the others like me will stand and fight.”

The good old battle of ideas.

I personally think that the battle between western democracy and Middle Eastern religion will be won on the economic and cultural side.

All the Muslim immigrants come to Europe, BECAUSE life is simply safer and richer here. Kids have bigger chances, better education and health care. Obviously that is what really worries the Islamic fundamentalists: that the west simply is a more convincing model for society to strive for. That is why Hamas / Hisbollah build so many clinics and schools (with Iranian oil money) to be equally convincing as leaders - but their societies are not strong / potent enough to bring these services based on their own state structure.

That is a failure many Muslims are highly aware of and ashamed by it (hence all these old excuses that Damascus had street lights before Rome and that Baghdad has great hospitals before the European even knew the meaning of the word).

“But no one took them seriously because he was in prison, where as Ahmadeinejad is the head of a country.”

Still not quite on target. Hitler was put in jail, BECAUSE he had started a revolt to topple the government. So it was known he was serious about taking over Germany. It was actually a big mistake that he got such a mild sentence and never put away for good. Had many sympathizers at that time - and that is exactly what I meant by “fertile soil” for extremists. Someone like Hitler would hardly find any support in Government, the economy or the people. But 1933 he got plenty of it.

“I have read extensively on the EU. while I think it is a good idea in concept, I think it is poorly executed. The weak centralization is similar to the original United States and that surely did not work because the larger government has no jurisdiction over the actual states.”

We prefer our governments weak, so they don’t interfere too much.

“Another gripe I have with the EU is universal health care and welfare. Having a welfare state is as we will soon discover, implausible.”

Sorry, we like our kids healthy and low medical bills. Europe had several imploding well fare problems, but there has been a huge effort in many countries to balance self responsibility, budget and social care / justice. Seems to be working fine so far.

“When you add the influx of immigrants who simply want to take advantage of these welfare handouts with no intentions of paying for them to the already shrinking numbers of youth to fill their parent’s shoes, you have a major crisis.”

The aging crisis is a result of the pill in the 1970s and different lifestyle attitudes. The numbers are upside down - Europe is an aging society at the moment - that is why we need fresh blood from outside. Look at extremely xenophobic societies like Japan, who hardly have any foreign influx, they have much more serious problems with that.

“When I step back and look at the arms race today with nuclear weapons, I see the peace it has created. The guarantee of mutually assured destruction does in fact work.”

Hmmm, have you seen or read the documentary / book “commanding heights”?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/

It has a lot to say why the Soviet Union “lost” the cold war.

Thanks for your time and patience.

“this is that passive / ignorant support that has been growing lately. I think in terms of Hearts & Minds western humanitarianism has lost a lot of ground, but not because it itself is bad, but because so many western countries made bad policies and supported tyrannical governments in many Muslim countries”
Exactly. As a soldier who has a political science background, I can say that it is of the utmost importance to stress the difference between extremist Muslims and moderate Muslims. Also another huge point is to ensure that we fight our terrorists in a manner that does not turn us into terrorists in the process. This requires a lot more prudence in minimalising collateral damage. Soft power is by far more powerful than hard military power…hearts and minds…..

“cultural transformation has always happened in densely populated and highly differentiated places like Europe.”
True - but I feel like Islamic culture is so intwined with the religion itself that there is little room for compromise. Sharia is very serious business.

“Israel gets most information out of their prisoners by being smart and using intelligent interrogation.”
I think they just may be a lot better at keeping the torture out of the news. Of the people I have known in the Israeli services, they are the most intense of any soldiers I have seen. I am scared of the women in their Army! I guess I hope they don’t torture…they don’t need any more enemies in the middle east.

“….the west simply is a more convincing model for society to strive for.”
Exactly…which is the real reason I feel like these people hate us. Our success. (or maybe our over willingness to thrust our success upon them and their neighbors)

“We prefer our governments weak, so they don’t interfere too much.”
Such a strange duality with small non-invasive governments and such a large welfare system…I guess it is just strange to me

“we like our kids healthy and low medical bills”
Everyone wants that but it is just so hard to have it and pay for it. I know more about health care in Canada than the EU because I was originally from NY and I heard a lot of stories about long waiting lists, hard to find prescription drugs as well as a “brain drain” of doctors who left the public medical sector to pursue private endeavors for people who could afford it or just moved to the USA. Any problems like that in the EU? I have heard that in Canada the people with the money still get way better health care.

“that is why we need fresh blood from outside. Look at extremely xenophobic societies like Japan, who hardly have any foreign influx, they have much more serious problems with that.”
I think that the two situations are very similar. However, the type of people coming into Europe are not the type of fresh blood you want if you are interested in being able to keep the EU the way it is now. Thats just my opinion from what I have read. I’m not crazy about people who want to oppress women and stone them if they get raped. I mean come on….I do have Muslim friends but the crazies are out there….

-Ken

@ken: Thank for another round …

“I can say that it is of the utmost importance to stress the difference between extremist Muslims and moderate Muslims. Also another huge point is to ensure that we fight our terrorists in a manner that does not turn us into terrorists in the process. This requires a lot more prudence in minimalising collateral damage. Soft power is by far more powerful than hard military power…hearts and minds…..”

Amen to that.

“True - but I feel like Islamic culture is so intwined with the religion itself that there is little room for compromise. Sharia is very serious business.”

Christian culture was also very intertwined with European culture - it took us centuries to develop our modern secular society. The Muslims have yet to have their Renaissance or Martin Luther … or arrive in the 21st century. The religious mindset is still very much middle ages …

“We prefer our governments weak, so they don’t interfere too much.”
Such a strange duality with small non-invasive governments and such a large welfare system…I guess it is just strange to me

I think the welfare system is less the state intervening, but a social consensus agreed by all. Yes, we want unemployment money. Yes, we want strong social services. Yes, we want health care. … and yes, we are willing to pay extra (taxes) for this.

“I know more about health care in Canada than the EU because I was originally from NY and I heard a lot of stories about long waiting lists, hard to find prescription drugs as well as a “brain drain” of doctors who left the public medical sector to pursue private endeavors for people who could afford it or just moved to the USA. Any problems like that in the EU?

Not that much, because there are not that many private clinics. Most clinics are public and/or mixed with private patients.

“However, the type of people coming into Europe are not the type of fresh blood you want if you are interested in being able to keep the EU the way it is now.”

Of course not. All societies are subject to constant change.

We certainly have problems here in Europe with prearranged marriages and honor killings. But so far the law makes no exceptions for Muslims - and I don’t think that will ever change. We had huge public outrages over such cases here in Britain and Germany. There still is a majority of Europeans who won’t tolerate such things - Muslims sensitivity or not.

Just a quick note Ware never solved anything. To the folks above who sup[port Bushes war make $ 4 Hallaburton, and insure that EXXON/Moble,Shell etc get back in charge there . I AM A DISABLED VET 20 yrs Navy. I was in the same fleet same ocean same “Yankee Station”Same battle Group in the South China Sea ,Different carrier An i can truthfully say I WILL NOT vote for Mc SAME He is Not to be trusted ,, Believe me wen i say this!!!!! but we do chose what we want to believe.

This country is in deep crap with moronic “peace at any cost” and “the truth as I know vs. real truth”. You/people like you are why I worry for the future of my grandchildren, and this country.

Socialistic, ignorant and apathetic bullcrap!!! For God’s sake, quit listening to the leftist media and ask those that know so that you can create your OWN thoughts vs. political dogma from both sides. In less than 10 years there will be the need for a political party that honors our Constitution or there will anarchy for Political Freedoms. Otherwise, we are doomed to live as a Euro with a one world attitude and no way to protect yourself and people too stupid to care and willing to live without freedoms.

I noted a person this after noon wrote about us waking up and not be afraid of going to war.. I’m betting he is a chicken hawk.. Just like Bush n Chenney..
I;m betting Chaney is drooling in his Grole.. over Georgia and being mad at the same time cause he didn’t get to start WW3
Speaking of this Lets think on this for a moment. Sometimes we are truly blessed Bush is so stupid and kept us in Iraq, after the troops did what they were sent over for, we didn’t have the force ready to react to the Russians Think about that .. I really believe if we had the forces avail we would be looking in the Russians eyes and waiting for the first one to blink and ready to toss a NUK … Looking at this over all BUSH has us Screwed right in the ground We don’t have the forces ready to stop a cat fight on the street corner thanks to Bush & Chaney
I would relay like it if these so called folks who write to expound on the wonderful virtues of war they go down to the armed forces canter an ad Vol for a stint in the military.. BILL USN RET> Disabled Vet

Thinking a bit on my last post I would like it if the proponents of war would volunteer a few days a week to help out the Vets in there neighborhood .. How come they don’t take time to help out a homeless vet? Why don’t they take a vet who drinks to forget what happened to AA? Why don’t they help a family of a returning vet get on its feet?? Why don’t they insure the vet has a job?? Do I really Need to ask More ?’s of your local CHICKEN HAWK???>>>> BILL USN RET>>> Disabled VET

Those who would trade security for freedom Deserve neither ….. Ben Franklin 1774

I just tried to read the “BOOK” Orangegru…… wrote above I agree with what he is saying.. The only interjection i would like to make is a great army like we have don’t sent stand a chance against grullia warfare For proof look at NAM vs usaand Osoma ben L vs Russians on and on this story goes !!!!what the war mongers need to understand Iraq is there is the iraquie’s home we are “THERE” if it takes 2 hours or 2 weeks or 2years or 200 years they will toss us out.. we would do the exact same to anyone who tried to take over this place… Stop and think walk a mile in there shoes… an you will answer the ? Bil;l

I came across an interesting read this AM All about the Russia Georgia conflict..the part i found most interesting was that it was written by a person with big time leanings toward the Republican Party. Anyway it ended most saying it all i a nutshell :
“For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia’s space and getting into Russia’s face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost — in Tbilisi.
IMHO we are well underway now into the oil wars A Morning thought>>>>>>>>>>>BILL

@John tigerGUY: “Otherwise, we are doomed to live as a Euro with a one world attitude and no way to protect yourself and people too stupid to care and willing to live without freedoms.”

I guess you have never been in Europe?

@Bill: Thanks for your many comments and insights.

It’s too bad that many Americans still first reach for the Gun instead of Diplomacy.

But the “national security” card seems to trump all other concerns and common sense in most cases.

Invading Georgia was as much an act of greedy self interest as invading Grenada or Iraq.

I wonder what John tiger guy is saying about Europe. I spent several extremely enjoyable years on the coast of Sicily Very peaceful went fishing.. Had a wonderful place to live quaint nice garden extremely enjoyable, super great food ,and wonderful company Laid back atmosphere Enjoyable 2 say the least Bill USN Ret

“It’s too bad that many Americans still first reach for the Gun instead of Diplomacy.”

We did reach for diplomacy, but when that fails you have to have the courage to back up the “or else’s” with actions. It may not be popular among those who pacifist views prevent them from seeing otherwise, but sometimes force is a necessary means of dealing with those who are unable to be swayed by other diplomatic means. At no point did the U.S. simply start military operations before seeking a diplomatic resolution. We have been in negotiations with Iraq for over 15 years - I think that is plenty of time to get your act together.

@Stephen J. Galbincea: “We have been in negotiations with Iraq for over 15 years - I think that is plenty of time to get your act together.”

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

About what kind of diplomacy are we talking here?

The diplomacy of supporting such a dictator like Saddam?

The diplomacy of supplying weapons and military intelligence to a dictator like Saddam - to wage his war against Iran? (Remember Donald Rumsfeld visiting him and selling him nice explosive gadgets?)

The diplomacy of not intervening BEFORE Saddam invaded Kuwait in the 90’s, when he threatened the little country and your intelligence predicted he would invade.

The diplomacy of not finishing the job and ending Saddams regime in the first Gulf war?

The diplomacy of calling for an uprise against Saddam - and then NOT supporting the rebels and seeing them slaughtered by the Iraqi Republican Guard?

The diplomacy of erecting the no fly zone, bombing Iraqi people and not really supporting the Kurds for several years?

The diplomacy of starting a cheesy war against Saddam based on fabricated “threats” and alienating almost all your major allies (read the list of allies in the first Gulf War and the second - you might see some differences)?

The diplomacy of Colin Powell making false claims of WMDs and other fabricated excuses - even your own CIA was against this.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia - all these “great” nations are a result of failed American politics and interventions. Iran was a democracy before you the US helped the Shah. The Taliban expanded after the Soviets were driven out, because the Americans didn’t care what happened to all those soldiers, weapons and money they had. Saudi Arabia is financing many fundamentalist groups who hate America and want to erect the Caliphate again.

American diplomacy has supported so many evil dictators as it helped it’s “National Security”.

Saddam was a monster the US diplomacy helped to build and maintain for many years.

It might be a humiliating experience for Americans to finally acknowledge that Iraq is a mess and started under false pretenses. It was all about regime change and oil - no more and no less. Just like the Chinese support Darfur for resources or the Russians would love to get their hands on that pipeline in Georgia.

American diplomacy regarding Iraq was only used to disguise the real intentions - not to solve the crises.

Hummmmmmmm Thinking on this,wasn’t good ole RR of the tear down this wall fame that Armed good ole Saddam..??? Can i be wrong here? Saddam was a good guy back than ..However he for what ever reason tossed Shell,EXXON etc out of the country.. Now that wasn’t very nice… Just some wandering thoughts… BILL